[DAO:f8223db] Recreate Decentraland Base Hair Wearables

[Doki]

Hi @Yannakis (and @HPrivakos and @theankou ).

Maybe before commenting about price gauging take into account, different platform, different audience and different workflow.

1. Premade items to resell will always be cheaper because I’m trying to get rid of them faster.
2. I’m matching Roblox’s marketplace because a majority of it is kids.
   and here’s the important part:
   
   

3) As in the screenshot above “Roblox is WAY easier to make hairs” because I don’t have to do anything but apply a texture on some curves after converting and maybe decimate. I don’t retoplogise, I don’t bake, I don’t paint and I don’t weight paint and I don’t have to try to wittle it down to a 1.5k tri count which at times is like problem solving.

4. I don’t have an audience in Roblox and those two piece are my FIRST hairs. Wen I first joined Decentraland I resold my first hairs to Golfcraft for a fraction of the cost now because I was new in the space and wasn’t sure what I was doing. I am still new to Roblox and am not entirely sure what I’m doing.

TLDR
Comparing two platform prices where I’ve spent 2 years crafting my hair to be a certain way on one and then on the other I started making hair 2 weeks ago is quite frankly stupid.
I don’t have much experience on Roblox and I’m still learning, I’m trying to build up sales as quick as I can on Roblox to have more customers so I have a larger % of customers who can vouch for me and lastly (again, important)- it’s a quicker workflow for a fraction of the time.

[Doki]

And I was keeping this next part quiet as a friend recommended me to as I assume she didn’t want me to overload my workload or overpromise and I thought it’d be fun to surprise the community with something extra.
I was waiting on a member of the foundation to get back about this but as they’re busy and take their time, I took matters into my own hands and messaged Alvaro on the weekend to see if this was possible.

As it is possible; I’m also weight painting and rigging a second armature of hair and having to test them.

When I charge £300 for a hair on average in DCL, it’s for one thing; mesh and a diffuse map I’ve touched up.
What I’m offering here is (my mental sanity because it’s 38 freaking hairs- obviously this is a joke and doesn’t count,) the same as above and: baked maps (will have to make edits/paint over the roughness, will also be cleaning up normal maps because they never turn out the same and I’m testing emission maps so the black base hair can still pop),recreate a second armature with secondary weight painting, checking colliders and testing.
Kinda doing more than I’d usually do for one client and keeping the base price the same.

[Doki]

Lastly @theankou as for your concerns about my previous grant:

I may have been late but I OVER delivered on what I promised and STILL delivered:
I created a total of 90 items, an additional 90 materials and 205 textures
I promised 2 textures per clothing. Instead, out of the 5 themes, 1 theme had 4 textures each and 2 themes had 3 textures with the remaining 2 themes having 2 textures each.
I originally said I’d do 3 skintones. I scrapped that and put in a whole colour wheel so you could be any skintone you want. (16 million possible colours according to 101 computing!)
I originally said 12 hair colours. Once again, I scrapped that and put in a colour wheel which means over- you guessed it- 16 million colour options.
I only had to deliver GLBs, I decided to make sure there was a whole Blender file that anyone (beginner or not) could open and understand. I spent hours making sure that it was as easy to understand as possible, making sure user friendliness/ease of use was just as important to anyone who would open the file. (I got feedback on Testing Tuesday for new users that it was easy to use which was a huge thing for me at the time.)
I also paid a friend to create a start up scene so you can figure out how to drop the NPC into a scene without too much complication. It seemed to go pretty well on the Testing Tuesday!

Hope this helps.

[theankou]

@Doki

I created a total of 90 items, an additional 90 materials and 205 textures

Here is your roadmap from Pick’n’Mix grant proposal. ([DAO:a1ee609] Doki's Pick n' Mix)

Roadmap and milestones

Item Roadmap
There will be 5 themes overall, 1 per month.

(roadmap description)

An average of 90 modular items minimum created a month.

You promise an average of 90 modular items minimum created a month for each theme. Which means around 450 modular wearables total for 25k$. Your grant duration is 5 months. 5 * 90 = 450. You promised 5 themes overal, 1 per month. 5 * 90 = 450 minimum.

Now you tell that you made total of 90 items for a whole project duration, this is huge difference compared to amount of stuff that you promised.

I promised 2 textures per clothing. Instead, out of the 5 themes, 1 theme had 4 textures each and 2 themes had 3 textures with the remaining 2 themes having 2 textures each.

This means nothing to me, because in grant proposal you was promising minimum 90 unique items (unique models) created a month. Your grant duration is 5 months. 5 * 90 = 450. Why you tell about textures? I see nothing regards that in your grant proposal. Only few words about color variation and skin tones.

I don’t see any words about amount of textures. 1 wearable can have 2 materials 2 textures or more (5/5 if thats a skin), if its required for good texel density and overall quality. Which means that amount of textures may not be equal to amount of skin tones and color variations.

@Doki

I originally said I’d do 3 skintones. I scrapped that and put in a whole colour wheel so you could be any skintone you want. (16 million possible colours according to 101 computing!)
I originally said 12 hair colours. Once again, I scrapped that and put in a colour wheel which means over- you guessed it- 16 million colour options.

This requires around few minutes or few hours of work with Blender material nodes and should be presented as additional feature rather than replacement of unique models that your promised in your Pick’n’Mix grant porposal.

It’s clear for me now that you made 5 times less amount of models that you originally promised in your grant. And now I understand why I feel that your Pick’n’Mix don’t have enough of modular stuff.

@Doki

I may have been late but I OVER delivered on what I promised and STILL delivered

What you OVER delivered? 90 unique models compared to 450 originally promised?

FYI @Canessa @Manadaiquiri @fifitango @maryana

[theankou]

@theankou

Here is example of whole collection with pet and stuff that I made for 800$ - 1000$. I do this collections almost every week. For a whole year of hard work and creating such collections with animated pets and stuff, My salary is less than 25k$ per year on my secondary job. Each collections eats around 30-40 working hours (~5 hours every day/night including weekends).

Let’s calculate how much models I made total for 2023 year on my secondary job.

Around 8 unique models per week.
8 models * 4 weeks * 12 = 384 unique models created for a whole year. * 7 color variations (my secondary job project don’t support RGB feature like in Decentraland, so I need to make all color variations manually and prepare models with them) = 2688 unique models.

Oh, and I made 3 unique animations for each pet.

1 * 4 * 12 = 48 unique pets
48 * 3 = 144 unique animations

And all of that I made for less than 25k$ per year.

And now @Doki tell us that she made 90 unique models for 5 months for her Pick’n’Mix grant for Decentraland for 25k$. While originally she promised 450 unique models minimum.

Everyone gets 25k$ that easy for 5 months nowadays?

[BanJarod]

Feels like you are just mad that your attempt at a grant to remake base wearables failed

[theankou]

I care more about amount of stuff that Doki made compared to amount of stuff that she promised for 25k$

By the way, I was planning to republish my proposal with only wearables rework, but I’ve got a strict answer from Foundation that it is not right time for now, because someone already works on similar stuff.

And by the way, I supported that guy from Foundation and made correct weight painting for all his reworked wearables, FOR FREE.

[BanJarod]

@theankou

I care more about amount of stuff that Doki made compared to amount of stuff that she promised for 25k$

you spent way to much time talking about yourself, sharing pics of lame hair you’ve made and how much money you get paid for anyone to believe this is about genuine concern and not jealousy and ego driven

Also, on behalf of the people you keep tagging, none of them want that.

[Doki]

Please stop taking things out of context. 90 modular items all together in a month is what I promised as shown above.

You have issues with my previous grant but never came to me when I was asking for tester and had people to help me with any bugs or issues (and you’d also had this file for months) but suddenly when this new grant is up you have a problem. If you were so infuriated (by incorrect facts) and you genuinely thought there was a problem you would have bought it to me.
If you have a problem, contact the grant squad or the grant manager in charge. Either way, I overpromised on what I delivered and you chose to glaze over what I said and pick words to suit your agenda.
I’m not commenting on this thread any further because this is entirely irrelevant to the hair proposal and factually incorrect. You pick and choose your words when you want and twist my own to to suit yourself. Comment on the correct thread and comment with the correct facts.

[theankou]

Here is short list of issues with Doki Pick’n’Mix grant. I believe this is critical issues, it’s impossible to use npcs as ready to go solution for projects.

For 25k$ I expected more. Create color variation takes 30 minutes, create unique model takes hours. I don’t believe that colors should be counted as unique made from scratch models.

• Lack of promised unique models (I don’t believe that texture variations takes full costs as unique models)
• Lack of core animations (stand, walk, talk, idle1, idle2)
• Lack of skeleton rig and facial rig (mixamo rig used instead, it’s useles for unique animations and facial animations)
• Lack of most common themes for most common Decentraland cases (Musical Theme, Futuristic Theme, Club Theme, Gallery Theme)
• Lack of option to use models as wearables (models weight painted to mixamo rig, which means that models will not automatically work in Builder with Decentraland Avatar, and requires re-weight painting of all models to Decentraland Avatar Armature)

Nobody will use NPCs with this issues. Doki solution is not ready to go for most common scenarios. Even not ready to go as wearables.

Once again FYI @Canessa @Manadaiquiri. I know some of things was not promised in Doki’s NPC grant, but this things is critical blockers for ready to use solution. I believe newcomers will struggle with issues and won’t use Doki’s NPCs. They’re not prepared as ready to use solution in commercial project.

Thats all from my side regards Doki’s previous grant and results. Thank you for your time @Doki and don’t take it as hate. Once again, good luck with your hairs project. Hope this one won’t have issues and will be ready to use and will be implemented. I hope you will deliver the best quality as possible for 15k$ that you ask.

Hope next time Foundation will do tender, tender is fair solution.

Also, I think it’s good for community to see answer/recommendation message from any of Foundation members here to make sure that connection between Doki and Foundation exists and that Foundation trusts and recommends Doki to do this project. For now we can only see screenshots with proofs from author of proposal.

[mazafaka]

I voted NO on this one. For me this has nothing affiliated with “update”/“upgrade” which means - Invalid.

It is sad that most of the ‘community’ members who voted with “Yes” are SIMPing or voting in favor of a friend. Probably this is the reason behind the delegations removals from @esteban

[Manadaiquiri]

@mazafaka, Doki and I have only exchanged ‘Hi’ a few times over the years, and we’ve never had any private conversations. While it’s fair to question people’s integrity, I want to clarify any appearance of a conflict of interest for my part. I voted in favor of this proposal because I believe it’s beneficial for the platform and its community.

@theankou, thanks for bringing up the Pick’n’Mix grant. I assumed everything went smoothly as the vesting status shows completion, and we often see the avatars featured in social media ads and real-life convention stands. Since the grant was completed, including interviews with the GSS and Revocation team, I consider it satisfactory and outside my role to comment further. I believe Doki is a very talented artist specializing in hair creation, so I support this proposal. It’s your right to suggest changes to collaborations with the foundation, as you have done.

[theankou]

No problems @Manadaiquiri, thank you for answer.

I have nothing against Doki and her models. But pricing… 400$ per model is insane price, especially if it’s bulk. Foundation can hire individuals from The Sims 4 or AAA for this price. Even the word “we are in rich crypto industry” won’t help here.

Whole studios do scenes with unique models, animations, simple special effects in Decentraland for same price for their 3d services.

In proposal description we can’t even see hourly rate, which is very important in things like 3d modeling.

Overprice with unknown results, the same thing already happened with Pick’n’Mix, at least for my experience of working with it in commercial project. Sadly I had no time to investigate project and write feedback when It was in process of creation…

Hairs rework may end up with another rework in future to match AAA. For me it’s clear.
By the way, when we will see feedback from Foundation members?

[Huepow]

I personally don’t like the design of majority classic men/womans hair that we have in DCL. As an illustration - It looks like a plasticine hairs and now the proposal is about to make the same plasticine hairs with PBR textures, draw a lines with a needle in a plasticine so it will look a bit more presentable

Just look at these hairstyles, it looks like a something was drawn quickly to release the alpha somewhere in 2017-2019 and see how it goes:

Upgrading this base hair collection - its like taking this synthetic wig that was laying under your couch for a decade, adding to it hair extensions, spray it with a reflective glosses and thinking that you made it!

I don’t see people coming and seeing classic hair that we currently have as a part of their personality at the start in 2025 and in the future!

When a person as a new user dissattached with his/her avatar at the start, you cannot have high expectation about comming back. Face and hair are very important! New user mostly don’t jump in the marketplace right away to buy MANA and spend

I would vote yes, if this proposal would bring equal emount of NEW hair for men and womans and not upgrading the old ones while leaving them as a “genesis”

And i also don’t believe that new hair will drop sells from creators of the hair market, since its possible create so many other hair variations, like literally so many! And anyone would like to buy something else from the standart variations just to look more unique over time.

But i would like to hear from the Foundation , if they decides to allocate founds for avatar updates, something like “avatar 2.0” including hair, faces, beard, makeups and body structure, while keeping the old once as “genesis” option, because @Doki and @theankou could be a perfect candidats to be hired for a new hair styles, faces, beard, makeups, mini accesories and especially noses. I love both of them as a creators! If this will become real, their collaboration would add more diversity to the results for the new client and more attraction from the new user that at first just want to make an avatar that he likes in order to have more pleasant experience and memories at the start.
But for a current proposal it is a “NO” from me

[BanJarod]

@RobL: $200k 3-day event with stolen art? Yes Please!

Also RobL: $15k to improve the platform and new user experience permanently? Lol no.

Most of Community: RobL abusing his stolen VP is bad for DCL

Also the community when RobL votes with them to pass or block what they want:

@esteban maybe vote to counter Rob?

[dao]

Recreate Decentraland Base Hair Wearables

This proposal is now in status: REJECTED.

Voting Results:

• Yes 31% 2,548,418 VP (80 votes)
• No 68% 5,430,181 VP (28 votes)
• Abstain 1% 12,096 VP (2 votes)