[DAO:33fdb03] Open Source SammichGame SDK7 +Community tools

Governance
22

I have personally been reevaluating my vote, been speaking to Devs both in the space and outside the space as well. One thing that stood out to me is one of the individuals I spoke to mentioned that in the US the cost of a Dev working on something like this would be 1k a day.

Would you say there is 45 days worth of work to be done @Doug-NFTWorld ? (day meaning 9am-5pm)

Reason I ask you, is because @pablo has not answered @AwedJob’s question from 9 days ago

Perhaps maybe you have a better understanding of this. :slight_smile:

23

Are there any sources that can cosign this statement?

24

Sammich game is OG…
I vote yes because)
a) We need more Websocket documentation
b) We need more SDK7 implementation (Not easy working with early tech)
c) I would like to see a SammichGame hackathon…
d) A lot of addictive games can be implemented like this…
e) We could have tetris competitions
f) Pablo is OG and deserves the $ for all the work he has put into this game.
g) Opensource

Some other projects are full of air and ask 5x as much…
What would you suggest creators build instead? @dogman

25

My understanding of this is that it is worth it as my vote indicates.

I wish these things were so simple as to plug in some variables into a formula and get a result, but it doesnt work that way.

26

Guilty - I think I threw this number out as a median salary for a developer in the US when we were chatting about this once. I now realize I was assuming about $10k in gross income per pay period on a biweekly schedule, when in reality that’s more like the average salary for a month. If someone works 12-16 hour days it might be worth $1k but I think I fumbled the ball on that estimate.

Both Glassdoor and Indeed estimate the average software engineer pay to be around 120-140k per year when you account for base salary along with benefits packages, bonuses, etc.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm
https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries

120k makes for a nice even number because I usually think - 12 months, 10k per month = 120k. 20 working days per month but there’s holidays so it ends up being like 260 days total which gets us to $461 a day.

So on average, this grant in the US is going to get you about 104 eight-hour days of a developer’s time in the US. Maybe still less than some of you may have thought.

27

I may need to release some alpha here, and I apologize if it hurts this grant’s chances because Pablo actually voted in favor of the grant for me to be able to do this, but…

I’m throwing in the ability to use Virtual Land Manager’s scene servers to store game state and piggy back on top of Colyesus to enable custom multiplayer events. I’m using the Redis Presence/Driver architecture on an auto-scaling group, which has the ability to scale out multiple servers relaying event messages when needed. In other words it should be strong enough to allow people to stop worrying about getting their own servers for developing small games.

Some more perspective I can provide - even as powerful as VLM has proven to be, I don’t think it will take me 3 and a half months to update the integration package to SDK7. That’s mostly because a lot of it is just TypeScript that’s not SDK specific. Not sure how true that is for Sammich Game or how much some of the new game development capabilities that VLM is going to have will play into the decision made here.

28

About the working hours, first of all, although I will be working here with almost full dedication, apart from some maintenance at Golfcraft, the proposal is not about publishing a job offer, and moreover, the DAO is not legal and cannot hire in an appropriate way. There are other proposals about squads, etc.

About working time, you have to be aware that it already has working hours on it, that right now, I would need to review to really tell you how many hours I dedicated, and not only in front of the computer, but to think on the creativity and mechanics of each mini-game, other mini-games that are not yet implemented, It’s practically impossible to calculate. Or do you think the work is to press keys right away to write code?

Also, you are ignoring and nullifying the value of the invention of the system, that no one else has done and simplifies the creation of more multiplayer mini-games, some of the mini-game took me only like 4 hours to implement because this system, others more (excluding the creative time to think about it). But also you are ignoring all the previous time dedicated to think about this and other ideas, and not just rough ideas; also the time to investigate to design the mechanics, etc…

So, the proposal is really about providing a product, for the best of the DAO. What I usually like to think is the following question: “Is Decentraland better with this product/service or with those funds in DAO treasury?”. And you can review all previous enacted proposals, think how much has been spent and if those work or not and how much it has contributed, because some proposals can sell really well but then later it’s worth nothing.

Also you can ask other game studios how much something is worth to build, and there you can be ignoring a lot of stuff, because you can come with your own game design (that already has work on it) and the studio just have to code it, or you can just ask them for a rough idea of a game and they have to think the game design and other details, then… Please, go ahead and ask for a budget to a studio with a proven portfolio that had done previous multiplayer works working well (important, these should work well and smoothly); If someone anytime ordered to build a game, please tell us how the experience was.

Or if you know any other example in Decentraland, that works smoothly and has recorded gameplay, just tell me and show the gameplay, I will test it myself, I don’t want words nor presentations, I want action, prove your words with the product itself.Also, honestly, I have never seen again in Decentraland, the reactions of people playing those mini-games, that was not play2Earn focused in the start but fun.

Hope this answers some of your concerns, over all, don’t worry for voting yes or no, we can be friends anyway. I need to go, I can continue later.

29

I don’t want to fight with you, but… how is it proven? I tested it and it wasn’t working, how can I make it work then? anyway, maybe this conversation should go to another chat, also it’s not good to compare meat with velocity.

I repeat from the previous comment:
I will test it myself, I don’t want words nor presentations, I want action, prove your words with the product itself.
… or If you can’t, prove with other product you have built already.

30

Before I even submitted my grant proposal, it had been in use at Dollhouse, casa Roustan, Samsung 837x, and House of Sam as a prototype for many months. While there are certainly still some bugs I need to address in the first public release, most of them seem to resolved by running away from the scene and coming back, which is still a lot easier than re-deploying.

I think everyone who attended Roustan’s party on Saturday and saw their photos get added to my 50 meter billboard in real time can attest to the fact that it is indeed working. Thanks to the new DCL Camera, receipts provided below!

I have spent the last two days putting together a pretty comprehensive documentation wiki for VLM though, and would love to help you get set up if you’d like to use it.

Funny thing though…isn’t this you?

…and isn’t this you…on the billboard?

31

Ok thanks , now I see better what the product is about, I wasnt aware that you were using VLM on that party. Cool product for decentraland as it is now for sure. Sorry for doubting, you work is totally respectable.

1 Like
32

Thank you for that. I think the same of your work and didn’t comment to try to sway people one way or another, just to provide some insight on how much time this equates to in “average developer hours”. It’s up to them to decide what average is and who falls above it or below it, I think. Best of luck.

33

btw, come to party today, last week I tried to quick-fix things that were broken by latest updates.
Who didn’t play can have an idea of the sensations that can be extended to other products with the tools this proposal will bring, … and remember that is not limited to 2D.

1 Like
34

why single me out lol? Like I said I support pablo and the work he has done would support this this proposal in a different format.

35

@BET yeah, there isn’t any problem with @dogman , he had his doubts, and he more or less understood the proposal, it’s fine. I appreciate the support a lot, but also there can be space for constructive critics or voting freedom, I think he simply cares about Decentraland well being like others, but with his own thinking.
It is so reconforting finding so supportive people @BET thx a lot man.

2 Likes
36

What format would you support it in?

37

@pablo and I have spoken in private about it quite a bit. I have taken a lot of time to think about how to value development, spoken to other devs and comm members and reconsidered my position.I am just 1 person and not always right but I am entitled to my opinion like anyone else. I see value in this prop im just not 100% sure this is the best packaging (have discussed with Pablo) I changed my vote to abstain for this reason, still there 6.4 million no votes so not sure why i’m being singled out. I would like to see pablo get a grant in the future for development. I am a big fan of all the work Pablo has done and wish him much luck and success in the future.

1 Like
38

Voted no, because 48k seems way too much for 4 months of work.

Also I don’t think there are a lot of cases where some open-sourced games gets reused by community. For example this card game module for 3K (Communuity Card Game Module Expansion - More Games), haven’t seen it used in anywhere.

2 Likes
39

If others doesn’t have attention or didn’t work it doesn’t mean this won’t work. The product has demonstrated it works, people have fun, you can ask anyone that has tested it. I’m sure you will find previous grants with bigger fundings with zero impact, convincing marketing promises on proposals and lobbies, but that then, no users or even too buggy or that the product doesnt work, agree, I think there is enough background and previous work to know that this proposal is different.

No one reached me to put that game you link in Golfcraft scene, the key point is that is necessary to provide tools and libraries, as the 4th month defines, we will reach different people and creators to support them to integrate it in their scenes or modify the game in most straighfoward possible way. Also, we will be doing a hackaton (idea came after writing the proposal), for pixel artists and for programmers. Voxters is also an open-source project with 0 fund, and people integrated it in quite scenes, tools and support were provided, also participated in a hackaton:

https://twitter.com/Pablo_es/status/1400589917827256323

https://twitter.com/hashtag/voxters

40

I’ve waited to comment on this proposal as Last Slice currently has a competing proposal in this category. However, I’ve seen that Pablo voted 600k on his own proposal, but not on ours; therefore I don’t feel like my bias is unwarranted anymore. Removing his 600k votes would make his proposal fail. I don’t believe there’s anyone on the In World Builder project who has voted for their project as well (some have actually abstained with a lot of vp).

Secondly, I really admire your work and think a toolset of multiplayer services is needed. I just cannot agree with the language in this proposal. It sounds like you’ve made a game, it was successful, it has useful tools, and now you want to be compensated for “open sourcing” those libraries and migrating to sdk7.

I have two concerns with this.

Firstly, if you want to “open source” it, and it’s already built, then just switch the github repo to “public.” - this is very over simplified to highlight the fact that you’re looking to receive compensation for something you’ve already built.

Secondly, I am still unsure the best path forward for using grant funds to migrate scenes to sdk7. It will become necessary regardless, so I’m not sure using grant funds for a necessary migration are a best use of funds. Again, I’m 50/50 on this because I know the lift it takes to get to sdk7.

I would have been much more in favor of this proposal if it were worded differently.

3 Likes
41

I believe the majority of the active DAO community considers voting for yourself to be in bad faith, especially when doing it with large amounts of delegated VP. That isn’t to say that other people never do it, but until now the consensus has been that people should not be doing such self serving things if they really value the communities input.

1 Like